Nebenstimmen #37: Hannah Kendall & Paul Cannon (EN)

00:00:03:

00:00:29: Hello, I'm Paul Cannon double bassist of Ensemble Modern and today i have the pleasure the composer Hannah Kendall.

00:00:39: Hannah, welcome to the podcast!

00:00:42: Thank you for having me

00:00:44: So in... ...two thousand twenty actually.

00:00:47: in the middle of a pandemic Ensemble Moderne was introduced to your first time by mutual friend George Lewis And we didn't meet personally probably because it's a pandemic but got some new music and that piece called Verdalo And that was part of a larger project George had curated for us, which he was calling Afromodernism.

00:01:13: Two years later we finally got to meet in person for a premiere at Dono Eshingen and it's called Shouting Forever Into the Receiver.

00:01:23: I should mention both those pieces were conducted by another mutual friend, Fimba Kazaboni Both of whom George and Fimbayev already been on this podcast.

00:01:35: I want to ask because we played Verdala and two years later, we played Shouting Forever Into the Receiver And from my sense those were very different pieces.

00:01:48: stylistically

00:01:48: Yeah!

00:01:49: ...and i would love to know what brought you form one stage into another in that stylistic shift.

00:01:59: maybe you can explain a little What do I mean by that?

00:02:03: Yeah,

00:02:04: yeah.

00:02:04: That's a great question and i think it is definitely the case.

00:02:09: they sound like completely different pieces...I would agree!

00:02:13: And probably because Svidala was written when we were still living in UK London and then shouting forever into the receiver was written after I'd been living in New York for several years.

00:02:30: And, i think that only really had opportunity to discover how wanted write music truly when left UK.

00:02:47: I don't think i realized this at the time but i think i felt quite tamed in that musical climate and I don't know, suppose i'm a little bit weird and wanted to be weird in my music but didn't really feel as though could do that at home.

00:03:14: So there was definitely something about moving away from home being in space such as New York City more broadly Columbia where I went to do my doctorate.

00:03:29: So with George, with George Lewis who is my doctoral supervisor and the rest of the faculty at Columbia were you're just sort of left to your own devices for the most part obviously supported by people but you can do whatever you want.

00:03:42: And when i was allowed to do Whatever-I-want pieces such as shouting forever into the receiver we're born.

00:03:48: so

00:03:49: okay.

00:03:49: yeah

00:03:50: in all honesty That's what happened.

00:03:54: When was Vodala written?

00:03:56: So that was twenty eighteen.

00:04:01: And it was premiered at the proms in twenty eighteen, so just before I think literally one or two weeks Before i moved to New York.

00:04:14: Okay well ,I like both pieces very much.

00:04:17: .i'm just surprised from time-to-time when there's such a big stylistic jump over a very short period of time, what might have triggered that?

00:04:25: So you think it had more to do with your surroundings and where were at the time like physically or geographically.

00:04:35: Yeah but I think its more about the environment in space than i've seen in New York.

00:04:49: So I was working in arts management, like sort of juggling so many things.

00:04:53: Um...I think i'm juggling a lot of things now as well and I think most people are or most musicians are but I didn't really have the time and space to stretch my practice in a way that I would've liked in London.

00:05:07: so I think that's part it.

00:05:10: But also I think is do with the pandemic because um..I think at None of us knew if we'd be able to Do what?

00:05:23: We do ever again.

00:05:25: and so a lot of the things I've been thinking about such as I don't know, you know having like a bunch of music boxes or You know preparing strings with dreadlock cuffs.

00:05:39: Things like that I sort of thought oh well, you Know why not just give it ago?

00:05:42: because one thing that came out of the pandemic is that There were people commissioning smaller work, sort of solo works for online streaming.

00:05:55: And I think I utilized that opportunity to try preparations and things I've been thinking about in a smaller seemingly less risk-averse space than then built into ensemble pieces.

00:06:13: so it's the combination.

00:06:16: That sort of leads me to one of the questions I wanted ask you today, that You use certain objects and certain preparations which seem To be more than just simply about The sound for the sounds sake.

00:06:29: some Of these objects evidently have Some symbolic or a deeper meaning For you.

00:06:35: And i was wondering if you'd like to talk A bit About that.

00:06:38: so the piece we're working on now with you is again shouting forever into the receiver, but also even sweetness can scratch the throat which uses a lot of the same techniques.

00:06:50: Music boxes harmonicas and so forth.

00:06:53: maybe you can tell us about

00:06:54: that?

00:06:55: Yeah I mean objects themselves are important.

00:07:00: So i hope they don't come across as gimmicky or whatever because there's symbolism behind them is really important.

00:07:11: So for example the dreadglock cuffs which are hair accessories and specifically afro-hair accessories, I use those objects in particular because what i'm trying to emulate is coming together of the Afro and the Euro as was a situation on the plantation.

00:07:35: so it's these Afro objects with European object, so you know violin or a harp.

00:07:44: Or actually double bass.

00:07:46: I've recently started using the cuffs on double bass and it sounds good!

00:07:51: Yeah no yeah that will probably be coming soon... So i have been working my way through all of the instruments.

00:08:07: with regards to sound, it throws things off a little.

00:08:12: But that's the point because the sounds they produce is completely unpredictable.

00:08:16: I can't predict what their pitch content will be.

00:08:19: for example

00:08:22: The effect of the cuffs more or less multi-phonic isn't?

00:08:25: Yeah i mean depends where you bow.

00:08:27: so ideally you know, yeah.

00:08:31: Multiphonics are produced but it sort of depends on if you bow in front of the cuff behind or on itself.

00:08:44: isn't an exact science?

00:08:46: I haven't really figured out.

00:08:48: i'm still working on that.

00:08:50: so the result is unpredictable as was the situation with the plantations The meaning behind why I use certain objects and the purpose of it as well.

00:09:06: And that certainly the case with the dreadlock cuffs With music boxes.

00:09:12: there are sort of a whole host of reasons behind using them.

00:09:17: I think the sound of them specifically can sound quite innocuous and childlike, you know so cute I don't know somehow frivolous in some cases depending on how use them.

00:09:37: And it's kind of a trick trying to be a little bit sneaky i suppose because It catches people off guard if you hear, twinkle-twinkle little star playing for example.

00:09:53: But then... If use them as a collection of music boxes or something quite sinister so that we can shift and change the dramatic effect?

00:10:21: It's definitely creepy!

00:10:24: You're also even using the winding mechanism in advance That's amplified.

00:10:30: Yeah, yeah exactly so it sort of winding up the mechanism Of The Plantation Machine.

00:10:37: So that's why I use them because they're symbolically Winding Up all the different machines that make-up the plantation machine.

00:10:50: and this is after Benitez Rojo thinking about the plantations which are these huge big machine, but he says that there are a bunch of different machines that are operating at the same time to make up The Big One such as you know A Naval Machine or Religious Machine Did I say naval already?

00:11:15: I'm really jet lagged.

00:11:16: Can't remember Already!

00:11:18: A Political Machine Military Machine etc.

00:11:22: etc.

00:11:22: That all kind of run along in smaller ways, but collectively make up the plantation machine.

00:11:31: Is this coming from that idea of Gilles Deleuze?

00:11:35: Exactly!

00:11:36: Yeah absolutely yeah.

00:11:37: so machine theory...

00:11:40: Could you explain that?

00:11:42: just I don't know if it's possible to explain Deluzes in one sentence but Absolutely

00:11:47: not.

00:11:48: That is an impossible task you know, he was sort of saying that machines they're kind of in a flow and interactive state at the same time.

00:12:03: So the more they flow The more they interrupt.

00:12:06: so this is way understanding human interactions on very different scale than we are used to thinking about it right?

00:12:17: Yeah exactly How people interact in an impersonal way, or how societies is interacting within itself.

00:12:25: And there's all these different machines which are somehow also interlocked and influencing each other.

00:12:37: So as I understand both of these pieces we're talking about Are very much about that idea the plantation machine.

00:12:47: since maybe I'm a little naive about some of these things.

00:12:51: Could you explain a little bit more what you mean by that?

00:12:54: As in the pieces themselves, how they are yeah so i suppose with even sweetness can scratch the throat.

00:13:05: it is...I picked the title from Ocean Vong because captures the sweetness of sugar and the violence at the same time, so I really liked that.

00:13:26: And i suppose that lends itself well to Deleur's machine theory aswell because it you know... The more something repeats ,the more it interrupts which sounds counter-intuitive.

00:13:42: but if you know, I suppose a metaphorical machine as well as a literal one.

00:13:52: The more they repeat the more um their kind of interrupting each other.

00:13:59: and so there's something in that title which i found quite captivating because of course sugar and the substance itself is completely addictive but y'know?

00:14:11: And the commerce was addictive money generator, but of course that wasn't the case for the folks on the plantation who were procuring the sugar right and so it's... So that's what I'm trying to do in The Peace with regards to the plantation machine.

00:14:37: And specifically looking at one the substances that was fueling this whole thing.

00:14:46: Right, I mean and sugar in particular especially in cities.

00:14:53: I'm certainly not an expert about these things, but... Certainly the sugar plantations were much more violent and dangerous for the slaves.

00:15:02: For people working in fields?

00:15:05: Yeah particularly brutal because of the central system or windmill that ground down the sugarcane and the people operating the mill, in the machinery.

00:15:22: And the precarious nature of the machinery.

00:15:26: so many enslaved People would you know lose limbs as a part of that?

00:15:32: The boiling houses to boil everything down into sugar.

00:15:37: it was incredibly violent and dangerous.

00:15:43: That doesn't even touch the oppressive side of being enslaved.

00:15:55: and, you know... Being on a plantation regardless of actual act of making the substance of sugar itself.

00:16:06: Amazing!

00:16:09: The music boxes themselves are little machines.

00:16:13: And there was something that you mentioned when we first worked in the premiere room was that all of these music boxes are playing... they're not just recognisable songs, there's songs from a particular time.

00:16:27: Isn't it right?

00:16:28: Yeah yeah absolutely!

00:16:30: So the tunes are from when plantations were being established specifically and I think thats because being English and being British in the UK.

00:16:50: That sounds really weird, but I'm sure people know that one can be both things in the

00:16:58: U.K.,

00:17:00: so specifically English and British.

00:17:03: And there is this lack of understanding involvement in the transatlantic slave trade, which sounds really bizarre.

00:17:18: But so we don't have any national monuments.

00:17:22: if you asked folks on The Street about UK's involvement in Transatlantic Slave Trade though I would bet that there wouldn't be an indepth knowledge and actually Some students about this who have just come up through the British education system, and they say it's a same thing.

00:17:47: We're not talked about in school which sounds really bizarre now living in America where there is strong cognitive understanding of of the slave trade in America, but that's not the case in the UK because it was happening on the other side of the world and so you can kind of forget about.

00:18:15: It sounds really strange...but I would assert that is the case!

00:18:20: And by using these tunes hasn't even really been formed, really.

00:18:34: So I'm not sure if this is the thinking behind it.

00:18:37: you know?

00:18:37: This is that aim to think about in Europe when Beethoven was writing his fifth symphony, what's happening at the same time on other

00:18:52: side of the world?

00:18:53: That's a connection...I don't think i thought before you brought up I mean of course, Ode to Joy is coming out at the same time that we just have millions and millions of people suffering horribly.

00:19:06: Exactly

00:19:07: or later with Ode To Joy.

00:19:09: but you have Shiller writing this lovely text about all men are brothers exactly.

00:19:15: yeah That's exactly the reason behind it.

00:19:17: Yeah, Europe and UK.

00:19:24: we think of these instances as being completely separate.

00:19:29: And it's just not the case.

00:19:33: so that is why I use those tunes in particular.

00:19:36: yeah

00:19:39: It's effective with that kind background knowledge Because of course when we worked on the premiere, We'll have a first reading Of The Peace And we won't talk about what it's About.

00:19:57: Yeah...we just need to put the thing together and figure out how To play the Thing.

00:20:02: So in First Hearing one gets- One has A particular personal interpretation What they're hearing They might see as abstract.

00:20:12: You mentioned before that there's always this danger when you have objects like a music box in a piece There's the danger of it seeming frivolous or silly and Certainly anytime we have a piece like that

00:20:29: where

00:20:30: there's objects and toys.

00:20:33: We're having fun, we are playing with our

00:20:35: toys.".

00:20:36: And then you come in say this is about the slave trade and misery... Sure one hears a piece completely differently.

00:20:52: not that I thought it was funny but wouldn't have necessarily gotten all of that without some explanation, which kind of leads to a bigger discussion about programmatic music versus abstract music.

00:21:13: And I think... Some people have very strong feelings about that.

00:21:16: like i've heard that argument that music is fundamentally an abstract form and if it can't be understood in an abstract sense then Not working.

00:21:27: I don't think I agree with that.

00:21:30: Yeah But I'm curious what your thoughts are about About that.

00:21:33: and first of all, would you agree?

00:21:35: That your music is more on the programmatic side?

00:21:38: No, I don' t think so.

00:21:40: um i'd love to talk about that smoke because I think some people have.

00:21:46: I try not To read reviews but then People send you things.

00:21:49: And So I did recently Read something about that greed, or maybe I should say that certainly isn't the intent.

00:21:59: Maybe it comes across that way but...

00:22:03: Well let's talk about what is programmatic music?

00:22:06: So it's certainly not a Straussian tone poem It's telling a definite story But it's also not purely abstract.

00:22:19: Yeah!

00:22:19: That is true.

00:22:25: go with that thought, because I suppose I instinctively think there is a strong narrative arc.

00:22:36: Maybe i'm incorrect in thinking that and then... And then I suppose like that isn't what I am trying to do.

00:22:45: so maybe it's that instinctive connection programmatic music and having some sort of narrative.

00:22:56: And I'm not trying to do that...

00:23:02: Well, I suppose there's a spectrum?

00:23:05: Yeah!

00:23:06: I mean if i would think about visual arts There are paintings which are purely abstract and there are paintings Which obviously you know That's a flower.

00:23:17: Then there is plenty Of things in between Where they might be definite objects or people in the painting, but the scene itself is abstract.

00:23:28: And that doesn't mean it's trying to tell you a very specific message...

00:23:31: Yeah!

00:23:31: ...but its definitely giving you a vibe.

00:23:35: That's true.

00:23:36: I do like that assertion actually.

00:23:38: and yeah going back your question i've been thinking about Glissant as well who thinker and writer, I go to a lot because he speaks about opacity.

00:23:59: And the sort of...I suppose that sort of ethics or understanding in how much especially within the Caribbean sphere How much we can demand opacity really?

00:24:15: Or should be demanding it?

00:24:18: Oh, sorry.

00:24:20: Transparency.

00:24:23: But transparency in what sense?

00:24:26: In understanding the thing is I actually just had a coffee with Fred Moten who's one of the most incredible writers and thinkers.

00:24:38: i think we just met for a coffee.

00:24:40: it was sort he actually said this incredible thing.

00:24:48: what you know.

00:24:48: well glissant is.

00:24:49: i can't get out of bed without thinking of glissant for example.

00:24:52: so he's a big, big thinker and considers glissante who was a martinecan poet writer philosopher.

00:25:06: and there's no way I can condense a four hour conversation into a pithy line.

00:25:13: But, but i had wanted to ask Fred on this notion of opacity because in these creolized situations which is really what glissante is considering and what I'm trying to consider in my music.

00:25:33: So that's what the blending really, it's about recreating this creolized space where all of these different things come together.

00:25:42: we don't know what the outcome will be.

00:25:44: so how much can we expect transparency and understanding from that situation?

00:25:56: And iIm not sure think I'm comfortable with not expecting a certain reading or outcome because i just can't control it.

00:26:14: Fair enough,

00:26:17: yeah

00:26:18: but maybe more generally and okay this is a very basic question how do you listen to music?

00:26:29: Because depending on what it is I'm listening to.

00:26:35: Yeah, I mean for example you wouldn't listen to Geig Friedrich Haas.

00:26:40: the same way you would listen to Grime electronic dance tracks.

00:26:51: and how do you put yourself in a kind of headspace one needs to be?

00:26:55: To listen these things?

00:26:58: can you help me?

00:27:00: Yeah, I mean...I would say- I don't know.

00:27:03: I wonder if we'd listen to Gayog's music and Grime that differently?

00:27:11: I suppose the way to listen is to Listen without expectation And try find something That connects with our ear.

00:27:29: But thats how i go about it.

00:27:32: I don't know if that's the right way.

00:27:33: That's how I go about listening to music in general, no matter what it is?

00:27:43: For myself sometimes i'm listening more passively than others but... ...I think when I know there isn't a concrete narrative or some concrete intentions or thoughts behind the piece.

00:28:03: I start searching for them without necessarily knowing what they are, so yeah you hear the thing in a very different way when your becomes kind of... What do you call it in England?

00:28:23: Where's Wally?

00:28:25: Oh yeah, Waldo is where's Wolly for us.

00:28:35: Do you say, You mean the more about it?

00:28:38: Yeah.

00:28:38: I mean once Once you get The language of it so to Say then things start To click into place and they become obvious.

00:28:49: So now i've heard This piece Of yours quite a few times And Now that know what its About It's actually quite clear, but I never would have gotten that on the first hearing.

00:29:01: Interesting...I think that's fine though!

00:29:04: Oh sure?

00:29:05: Yeah..

00:29:08: I'm not saying it is bad....

00:29:10: No i know yeah But i suppose im thinking this sort of part of reason why felt um uh quite a little bit claustrophobic in The UK because we're taught to well certainly when studying, we're taught to have this directness and immediacy through our work in music.

00:29:37: So making sure that it's most likely the listener will have a clear sense of what is you are trying say on first listen because they may never hear again!

00:29:54: it was a real active present thing and actually I'm just not that interested in that at all.

00:30:03: You know, i don't know what you're going to take from this music.

00:30:06: so what's the point in me trying to control it?

00:30:09: And maybe you'll hear this piece again... Maybe you won't!

00:30:13: I think that's okay.

00:30:14: if you're confused That's fine by me.

00:30:17: If you're hearing something that wasn't intended Cool no problem um.

00:30:23: and-and I think that's what I mean.

00:30:27: And it is just quite nice to have some sort of mysticism, sort of hanging in the air.

00:30:34: but then as you say Oh!

00:30:36: It Is Quite Nice To Have Some Of The Detail.

00:30:40: Maybe That You Know Shifts My Thinking A Bit But I Didn't Know...I Think I Can't Worry About It.

00:30:50: Well..I Mean....I Keep Bringing It Up Because In You know, there's some pieces where I get the explanation and it's almost a disappointment.

00:31:02: Where I liked it better when it was abstract And then I got the explanation like maybe you didn't need to tell me that in your case It was.

00:31:12: it was a bit more of the opposite where i found The piece much more profound and much more captivating knowing even just a little bit about where you were coming from with it.

00:31:24: Yeah, because maybe some of the references I Just wouldn't have gotten that on first hearing i'm sure some people would But You know?

00:31:34: I'm just...I'm just a bass player

00:31:38: No!

00:31:38: Um You're very well informed musician as well as a bass-player.

00:31:46: That's really interesting.

00:31:51: Yeah, one of my students heard even Sweetness Can Scratch the Threatener concert a few weeks ago in New York.

00:32:01: We have this incredible program at... Well there are several great programs at Columbia University but we have ex-veterans.

00:32:14: and he had served Afghanistan and when he heard the walkie-talkies, he was like oh my goodness I've just been transported back to Afghanistan.

00:32:28: And i was thinking Oh My Goodness!

00:32:30: I had forgot...I should have thought to warn you about this because some people.... When it was done at Don Ayrshenan there was an African American person in the audience.

00:32:44: they came up to me and said oh my goodness that reminds me of sort of heavy policing in black communities, in America.

00:32:55: And just even like some of the sonic sound world...the triggering of this kind of static walkie talkies are not really being able to hear what's been said which is the point of it but I hadn't possible triggers.

00:33:14: Contacts and connotations, I mean for me that was just a fun toy you could have played with as a kid!

00:33:21: Right...I

00:33:21: have no negative memories of a walkie-talkie

00:33:24: but yeah all these sort different hearings off the sonic sound world?

00:33:35: Oh yes obviously i know why I use them in particular but i think honestly a lot of it is being on the subway for eight years and not once ever hearing clearly what this being said over the Tannoy in The Subway.

00:33:55: And then someone's

00:33:56: like kind

00:33:56: of blurt something out, Evan your a hundred blocks uptown than where you want to be and they had said we're skipping all the stations for the next one hundred.

00:34:06: no-one ever knows because the system is so poor now

00:34:10: that it.

00:34:11: That Is A Universal Experience.

00:34:13: I've traveled a lot of parts Of This World In That It.

00:34:15: That Is One Of The Most Consistent Things.

00:34:19: That is true.

00:34:20: It doesn't matter what part of the world you're in, if you go on a train station and there's an announcement... There's no chance that you understood it!

00:34:27: Yeah

00:34:28: but I... But it's interesting.. You use... The walkie-talkies are very heavily featured both these pieces.

00:34:36: And uh....it's interesting that your attracted to the fact that text isn't understandable because quite heavy.

00:34:50: You're quoting the book of Job, you're quoting The Book Of Revelations and it's mostly or completely biblical references.

00:34:56: Yeah And not just any Biblical references.

00:35:00: They are quite specific.

00:35:05: So I don't know...I'm a very amateur composer.

00:35:14: I'm not really sure how to work with text in writing, so generally avoid it.

00:35:19: But if i would use texts usually composers are very concerned that the text is understandable and you don't seem to be too bothered one way or another.

00:35:31: In this case

00:35:32: Yeah!

00:35:33: The unpredictability of what might come out.

00:35:37: So there's the revelation passages where it's talking about people killing each other.

00:35:46: And sometimes, I think in the premiere because so its recorded and that is the title track of my album came out last year sort of violent aspect, which is obviously harrowing but it's also quite evocative as well.

00:36:14: So its' quite nice not being able to predict what comes through and then for the same album even sweetness can scratch the throat.

00:36:25: I think one of those beautiful moments that come out and thou shall be secure because there is

00:36:34: hope.".

00:36:34: And I was like, oh my gosh that's so beautiful!

00:36:37: It's so lovely that came out in that one performance.

00:36:41: So it can sort of shift and change the reading of what one might take from it.

00:36:50: But I like that can shift and change depending on how close someone's speaking to the walkie-talkie, whether its amplified or what space is like... And i suppose do quite like that!

00:37:06: The understanding of text isn't a point at all.

00:37:14: Yeah, I'd heard a recording of Shout & Proven to the receiver radio Recording and that engineers had The sound engineers had you could hear like they had Placed the walkie-talkies higher in them so you can't hear everything.

00:37:29: And no it's such a shame.

00:37:31: It's

00:37:32: completely Not the point, it's opposite of the points.

00:37:38: But I think you can look on the page as though they're sort-of a duet with everything else behind but there really meant to be submerged in their material?

00:37:47: Well that is just tradition... Exactly!

00:37:50: With most text based music.

00:37:52: so somehow lyrics should be understood

00:37:56: and

00:37:57: spoken touch should also be understood.

00:38:00: It was interesting

00:38:03: Yeah, but I suppose what is unique that you know?

00:38:05: it's a composer really saying.

00:38:07: I don't want you to understand this.

00:38:10: Um...I Don't-I don't know.

00:38:13: have you come across that before?

00:38:15: Oh sure

00:38:16: okay well yeah great so

00:38:17: It's fine.

00:38:18: no that can happen.

00:38:18: i mean uh What we see a lot of Is whispering Like they just like the sound of whispers and They definitely don't wanna be understood.

00:38:28: That's very common.

00:38:29: Yeah,

00:38:33: somehow it's in the middle if you're using a walkie-talkie where its possible to amplify at what is understandable.

00:38:40: And depending on how people speak I could slow down my speaking and really enunciate.

00:38:51: that would help.

00:38:53: It also has to do with scoring.

00:38:55: it's going to get covered up and you just kind of get the static-y radio sound.

00:39:04: It depends what you want, but that... That's what I mean.

00:39:07: like you're kind of playing this game going between abstract and concrete because the text is very concrete and very relevant to the piece.

00:39:17: yeah But then your saying at the same time actually its more.

00:39:25: You maybe understand that the text is relevant, but you can't quite catch it.

00:39:29: That's an interesting.

00:39:30: take Switching gears.

00:39:36: I noticed your doing quite a bit more teaching these days and as i just mentioned im an amateur composer myself.

00:39:50: What does lesson one with Hannah Kendall look like?

00:39:54: Lesson one.

00:39:55: If I come in for a lesson, what are we talking about?

00:39:59: Interesting!

00:40:05: So this last semester i've taught two classes so composition to music majors but the class that actually teach most is non-music majors, so a required class at Columbia which is kind of amazing.

00:40:22: So every single undergraduate has to take a music humanities class and in that class we consider Pauline Oliveros' meditations.

00:40:36: We do one her meditation deep listening.

00:40:41: Maybe I mentioned that first because i'm trying to remember what we do on class one of composition.

00:40:46: So is this a seminar class?

00:40:49: These aren't private lessons.

00:40:50: Compositionist Seminar, yeah and as is the Music Humanities class, so sort of more of a lecture.

00:41:00: but there's sort of twenty-five max in those classes.

00:41:03: That that's allowed for something like composition?

00:41:06: Oh yeah no!

00:41:06: So that's sortof more historical...historical class.

00:41:10: But for seminar composition it's between ten and twelve usually which still quite a lot.

00:41:16: There was a lot of grading anyway for all wonderful musicians.

00:41:23: What I actually ask students to do composition-wise is, we... We do talk about auxiliary instruments really early on so it's not maybe because this in America and they take their theory classes with the theorists then come come to the, yeah composers for composition class are raring to go and so we can do quite I don't know quite interesting compositional tasks.

00:41:58: And one of the earliest things i do ask is to think about auxiliary instruments and to...to think of how we can extend our sound world beyond the ensemble in a way that is um..is of meaning to the individual composer.

00:42:19: What do you mean by auxiliary instruments?

00:42:22: So, the objects we've been talking about so I use walkie-talkies for a specific reason.

00:42:32: Music boxes are specifically and i'm not just using them because they're gimmicks or their toys For example.

00:42:43: one of things that ask students to think is how they might extend a traditional ensemble using additional sound makers.

00:42:55: that is very specific to their creative style.

00:43:00: And so what I'm trying to get them do, it's yes develop the individual voice but also really think about in a specific way how they can go on and write with good detail.

00:43:23: And I think I do that because i do a lot of panel readings, what's the phrase?

00:43:27: That is not the right phrase.

00:43:29: you know when you sit on a panel and choose things...

00:43:32: A jury?

00:43:33: Yes!

00:43:36: Sorry again how jet-lagged am I?

00:43:38: A jury exactly so.

00:43:43: read all these scores.

00:43:47: Most of the young composers I find aren't necessarily speaking about their works in a way that evokes deep understanding, if that makes sense.

00:44:03: It's not across-the-board...I don't want to publicly say this is a thing but... Let

00:44:09: me just get my microphone

00:44:10: closer!

00:44:13: Exactly.

00:44:13: But i think we could do better at supporting young composers and being able to really understand what they're doing, why they are constructing the material.

00:44:30: They are constructing it in a way that they constructs it and also speak about effectively how unique is their compositional voice?

00:44:40: So we actually start off with this in my classes then kind of work our ways back into technique.

00:44:47: Interesting.

00:44:48: So you actually start off with how to present oneself, yeah presentation interesting?

00:44:59: Yeah.

00:45:01: and so for example... as part of this task I had a student who brought a glass bottle.

00:45:15: it was vodka bottle.

00:45:20: When can you drink a note?

00:45:20: Twenty-one.

00:45:21: I don't know, it's probably twenty one... It was vodka but anyway that doesn't matter!

00:45:24: Probably a large glass bottle okay.

00:45:29: and he said this is the instrument that i found And it sounded really cool.

00:45:34: um it sounded great.

00:45:35: so this semester we'll be working with flute & voice.

00:45:38: So actually having playing with different you know, pitch material and content using series of glass bottles in extension of the flute.

00:45:49: You know that could actually be quite an interesting sound.

00:45:51: but then if you asked a student okay well why did you pick this object?

00:45:54: I don't know it's just totally random.

00:45:56: i thought it sounded cool for this class...I was like ok yes you're right but that's not enough!

00:46:05: Why have you chosen Do you really want to write about your work that it was completely random and it sounded cool?

00:46:16: I mean, i genuinely believe there needs to be space for things just sounding cool.

00:46:21: Absolutely!

00:46:21: That's

00:46:23: a... we should encourage that but maybe There is more interesting way of phrasing that.

00:46:34: Yeah yeah yes thats true.

00:46:38: I mean, no.

00:46:39: I've certainly read descriptions from composers where you could boil this whole paragraph down to like...I thought this would sound neat and they just said it very fancy-like.

00:46:52: but

00:46:53: okay yeah maybe i'm overthinking it!

00:46:57: But of course its important for things to sound cool and have them be able to play in experimentation, absolutely.

00:47:11: But then there's just something... So I'm trying to recall specific examples that have worked well and where they're so overwhelmingly powerful That yes it is a cool sound.

00:47:31: Yes its really neat but

00:47:33: What

00:47:34: are you doing with them?

00:47:35: And why does this mean something for YOU personally?

00:47:38: Thats kind of amazing.

00:47:42: Oh, okay.

00:47:43: So I don't think i would pass this class.

00:47:47: It's just an intro.

00:47:48: you ask what we do on day one.

00:47:50: that so maybe i'm asking big things On Day One

00:47:52: but yeah sounds like it.

00:47:54: Yeah

00:47:55: Then

00:47:55: We Get to Notation Eventually.

00:48:00: How?

00:48:01: Yeah Um...it could be I misunderstood something I heard in another interview of yours.

00:48:12: Okay So if I have it wrong, we'll delete this part.

00:48:16: Okay?

00:48:17: But i heard you say that at some point in your career You were working In arts management.

00:48:26: Yeah No That's true!

00:48:27: You were okay...that is a true story.

00:48:28: That

00:48:28: Is True.

00:48:31: Where in Your life does that Part of the Story come in?

00:48:36: Oh Right From A Very Early Age When I was Twenty-One.

00:48:46: So, I did an internship as part of a master's and arts management masters at the Barbican.

00:48:53: And then I stayed there for few years after that.

00:48:58: so working in media relations at The Barbican was really good fun.

00:49:04: Media

00:49:04: relations?

00:49:05: Yeah!

00:49:06: It was...I was there on a really cool time.

00:49:10: it was Steve Reicher's Seventy-Fifth birthday year and anniversaries, there was a huge Steve Reich festival.

00:49:19: So this is fifteen years ago?

00:49:21: Yeah it's turning ninety!

00:49:25: And I'd seen music for eighteen musicians the first time live with him playing his original band.

00:49:34: It was really cool.

00:49:36: That still one of my top five all-time favourite concerts because that was electrifying, incredible.

00:49:44: hearing hearing music writing.

00:49:47: And then after the Barbican, I worked at a charity that was working to actively diversify classical music and i did that for about nine or ten years.

00:50:00: yeah okay.

00:50:00: so you've done a lot of arts management experience

00:50:03: actually

00:50:05: which is quite unusual in The World Of Composers.

00:50:14: Yes.

00:50:16: I would say so,

00:50:18: yes!

00:50:23: Do you suppose that's had some impact on what your writing or how your writing?

00:50:29: Or do you see it as a completely separate topic?

00:50:44: self-produce my first opera.

00:50:46: So I self produced that, i would not recommend it.

00:50:49: The Knife of Dawn?

00:50:50: Yes!

00:50:51: It is called That... Well..I would do both....I'm pleased I did it but.....

00:51:00: No I couldn't believe when I read the song.

00:51:03: you self produced a major production at a big hall.

00:51:10: You just kinda did it.

00:51:11: It just kind of did it.

00:51:12: That's insane,

00:51:13: yeah really

00:51:13: finished...it is insane!

00:51:15: It is actual insanity.

00:51:17: yes I agree with you.

00:51:19: so i'm happy i did it because it exists now.

00:51:23: but the only reason i could do it was because i had the knowledge or sort of everything like fundraising marketing general producing etc.

00:51:37: etc.

00:51:37: So that's how it could be possible.

00:51:40: And I suppose thought, oh why should do this?

00:51:44: Because one of the directors at this charity was actively trying to diversify classical music.

00:51:53: So there's another article about who would... sing the role of Attello.

00:52:01: And I was like, oh my goodness it's just the same thing again.

00:52:04: and so... That old

00:52:04: chestnut?

00:52:05: Yeah that old chestnuts!

00:52:06: So i thought wait hang on maybe try an actively diversified opera.

00:52:10: yeah let's try to do that.

00:52:12: so that was their thinking behind all of it.

00:52:15: but such a my goodness.

00:52:18: yeah one and done okay.

00:52:27: But I'm happy because it's had a good life.

00:52:29: that opera is still being produced.

00:52:31: So, but yeah by other people.

00:52:34: Yeah

00:52:37: Never doing that again?

00:52:39: No II think actually That's important.

00:52:42: generally The People have A few Other Life Experiences Outside of Their.

00:52:49: One Thing Because i definitely miss that from Some Students that they really, just play their instruments or they'd just compose and it's like never leave the house.

00:53:04: I didn't do arts management...that sounds scary but i was working in a violin shop for couple years.

00:53:11: so he is doing repairs.

00:53:13: So interesting!

00:53:15: It still related-ish to playing the instruments, but it was like a real job.

00:53:22: I had to show up and clock in.

00:53:24: Wow!

00:53:25: Is that a nine-to-five

00:53:26: every day?

00:53:27: Kind of except iIwas doing overtime.

00:53:29: so more like nine to nine...

00:53:32: wow That's incredible.

00:53:35: So I need reset bridge on my violin.

00:53:37: How do you do that?

00:53:37: should take strings off or loosen them?

00:53:41: No they didn't trust me.

00:53:43: with violins

00:53:48: Okay,

00:53:48: I mean with the bass is if you need to move a bridge.

00:53:51: You can literally just whack it with a shoe It's

00:53:55: okay.

00:53:55: i won't try that one.

00:53:56: uh With what?

00:53:56: The violet?

00:53:57: no you loosen the strings A little

00:53:59: bit Just

00:53:59: pop it in.

00:54:00: its not That hard.

00:54:01: it's easy isn't

00:54:02: there?

00:54:02: it's surprising.

00:54:03: some things are really easy.

00:54:04: Some things Uh, I don't even want to do So like If the seams pop open that's No problem.

00:54:11: I have the clamps on the glue here.

00:54:13: I'd do it myself Practically every winter or something.

00:54:16: I have a lot of bases, one of them is going to pop open.

00:54:19: But then like if the crack goes straight down the top...I'm not touching

00:54:23: that.

00:54:23: So that's bad?

00:54:24: Cracks are bad seems fine.

00:54:26: Yeah!

00:54:27: Like If there's a gap where they're supposed to be glue Then That's Fine.

00:54:31: but if The Wood itself has cracked You're in trouble.

00:54:36: And i was more specialized on the setup aspects, so getting the right string height and planing the fingerboard stuff like that.

00:54:47: But there was a really useful training in the end which I couldn't have predicted at the time...I'm still in college back then but it prepared me for now.

00:54:56: working with people like you when you want to put dreadlock cuffs on my strings or bang-on-the-side I actually have a pretty good sense of what's safe and what not.

00:55:12: Because, uh... A lot of string players

00:55:14: treat

00:55:15: everything like a bit too precious And they don't necessarily know What's Safe & What Not Cause some things are really dangerous.

00:55:23: Yes!

00:55:24: Of course

00:55:25: Some things look Like They Should Be Dangerous But it is Actually.

00:55:29: If you Know What You're Doing It Is Fine.

00:55:32: So whats the dangerous thing?

00:55:33: The worst Thing You Could Do Is Anything Around The F Hole.

00:55:37: Oh yeah, that makes sense.

00:55:39: Anything around there...that's so delicate.

00:55:42: just lightly tapping it you're risking a crack.

00:55:45: Yeah I would imagine that.

00:55:47: Has anyone else for that?

00:55:50: Sometimes not specifically but sometimes young composers get a bit over excited and they'll come over want to show me something.

00:56:00: They start touching things If i see the hand drifting towards.

00:56:06: Okay, I see.

00:56:09: Yeah that's interesting.

00:56:11: yeah...I usually try things out myself.

00:56:15: if i wouldn't do it on my violin- I don't think I'd ask

00:56:19: sure

00:56:20: yeah folks to do

00:56:21: but you know

00:56:22: all in that position

00:56:23: not everyone.. I mean when your working with professionals not every one has like a trashy violin.

00:56:29: um what my colleagues do?

00:56:31: uh, so-called trashy bass.

00:56:35: I just have nice bases and I mistreat them a bit but there's some things i just wouldn't do with them.

00:56:46: um...I mean the issue is that more crazy stuff you want to do it less good of an instrument than you can expect

00:56:53: right?

00:56:54: So like..it might be there's cool effect you wanna use

00:56:56: yeah But

00:56:57: then You also want to have normal notes thrown in there.

00:57:02: And now those are going to sound really bad,

00:57:04: right?

00:57:05: Because of yeah manipulations I've been done.

00:57:10: Well Yeah not only that but like they have They will choose to use the worst instrument because

00:57:15: it's an

00:57:16: instrument itself is good cause they don't want a risk.

00:57:20: if somebody has a strata various they're gonna start clipping patefix all over Even though it actually wouldn't hurt the instrument at all, but you don't need that.

00:57:33: Yeah, yeah super interesting.

00:57:54: I'll ask one more question and then we can wrap this up.

00:57:58: What is your latest obsession speaking of toys and gadgets in gizmos?

00:58:06: what's something We might expect in Your next piece?

00:58:09: a lot of kettles.

00:58:11: It's The Kettles

00:58:11: Kettle T-Kettles.

00:58:15: Yes, they sound so good.

00:58:17: They're going to be in all my upcoming pieces.

00:58:21: um yes I was like did you know to ask this because i can talk about this for hours?

00:58:30: Or is it just

00:58:32: maybe we could just talk about it for five minutes?

00:58:34: but uh no I didn't know that I just had a feeling

00:58:39: interesting.

00:58:40: okay yeah Yeah, so I was a bit apprehensive about it because obviously... well not necessarily obviously but that kind of sounds wacky.

00:58:56: So my latest large ensemble piece is called Building A Burning House and i think had another idea for this.

00:59:13: But then, so in my head.

00:59:15: So I'd already started composing but when i had actually looked at the instrumental line up and realized oh wait hang on none of these instruments are actually in the piece.

00:59:26: I had ideas for the bassoons and the oboes And that finally got to writing things down as like other there's no bassoon or oboe.

00:59:35: cool amazing!

00:59:45: And so it was called Building a Burning House, and I knew that wanted this sort of dangerous climatic moment.

00:59:56: So almost like the boiling point of The Piece because even though its about burning boiling.

01:00:08: And I had this ridiculous idea, maybe get hot plates and you know have a kettle?

01:00:16: When it gets to the boiling point in the kettles whistle that could kind of be cool but is back on my head!

01:00:22: But i was thinking also ridiculous and super dangerous.

01:00:27: so never forgive myself if someone got seriously hurt in this kind of ridiculous endeavour.

01:00:35: that's kind of crazy.

01:00:36: So I had thought, maybe i won't do that but I ordered a kettle anyway just in case and then it was quite fortuitous.

01:00:49: because so years ago I had read this article but I had lost it which is kinda crazy cause.

01:00:58: obviously did a doctorate you're reading all the time making note on what you've read crazy that I lost.

01:01:07: I couldn't remember where i had read this article about how people on the plantations would sing and pray inside kettles.

01:01:19: okay

01:01:21: it was just like...

01:01:22: Inside of a kettle?

01:01:23: Yeah.

01:01:23: so when we talk about a kettle, probably would have been sort of a pan or pot in which sugar boiled.

01:01:31: Oh, somewhere like a cauldron?

01:01:32: Yeah

01:01:32: exactly yeah but they're called kettles.

01:01:36: But this chapter said also talks about pots and kettls And so The day that my new kettle arrived is the day that I've refound This article.

01:01:53: That's crazy.

01:01:53: okay let me see what happens if i put my face in the kettle To see what that sounds like And it sounds amazing.

01:02:01: So you can activate the whistle on a tea kettle by breathing into and exhaling, so almost as if your make seal around your mouth like that yeah?

01:02:16: You kind of breathe in to an out-of-the chamber of the teakettle activating the whistle.

01:02:25: You know a tea kettle whistling like when it's fully that full boiling point, but you can also have this kind of Sky.

01:02:37: I sounds like dying really.

01:02:39: This is kind of there's almost like a death rattle and he couldn't have his kind of Fluctuating quiet.

01:02:46: so am i picturing this right?

01:02:47: You take the top off the kettle yeah But you leave the lid on the stem.

01:02:52: Exactly, okay I get it.

01:02:54: yeah

01:02:54: so The Whistle activates.

01:02:56: and So i had in this latest piece five people playing tea kettles?

01:03:01: It's a sort of chorus of kettled.

01:03:03: And so it sounds like wailing and singing at the same time is just very strange duality.

01:03:11: and um...and so the whole piece kind of builds up to wailing kettle sound.

01:03:23: So again, I think it sounds cool but the meaning behind which is for me so powerful that even in places and spaces of complete atrocity people still have a need to sing and pray.

01:03:45: plantation owners, you know couldn't hear.

01:03:50: And yeah so I found that quite powerful.

01:03:54: and because i've found lots of different ways to use them... Yeah the kettles are...

01:04:02: Kettles coming back?

01:04:03: Kettle's coming back, Harmonica is phasing out!

01:04:07: Nice do you need a specific brand of kettle for this to work?

01:04:13: Because we have had this issue.

01:04:15: Yeah, so the most important thing is that the handle is collapsible.

01:04:20: So you can put your face in it.

01:04:22: Okay That's a very important thing.

01:04:24: but I've done with two different brands and they do sound different But both effective.

01:04:30: And i think its size of the chamber Of the kettle Can affect the sound.

01:04:36: Also obviously the type of whistle.

01:04:40: it can work across several brands, as long there's space for your face.

01:04:45: Good!

01:04:47: We have this issue... There is a piece from Heiner Goebbels.

01:04:51: Oh yeah?

01:04:52: It was seen in Schwarzaufweis and Black on White to duet for Piccolo & Teapot.

01:04:58: And the thing- The thing was that it was Heiner's personal teapot which just by chance when its heated up and boiling plays a perfect C major triad.

01:05:08: No

01:05:10: And they could not find another one that does, so it's a kind of object.

01:05:18: That you absolutely have to have for any production of that piece.

01:05:21: You're joking?

01:05:24: So I would just say if you found a brand that you like by like fifty of those things...

01:05:29: Yeah i've got six

01:05:30: seven good

01:05:31: yeah and its really easy to sterilize them

01:05:37: self-sterilizing right.

01:05:38: Yeah,

01:05:38: so it's perfect.

01:05:41: But yeah oh that was so funny!

01:05:45: Oh wow what brand is that teakettle?

01:05:48: I have no idea... It must be the productions from mid-nineties or some time ago.

01:05:56: For me Must Be Steel and Must Have a Collapsible handle.

01:06:02: Well on that note thank you so much.

01:06:09: Hannah's newest album is named for the same piece.

01:06:12: Ensemble Modern premiered at Dono Eshingen, shouting forever into The Receiver out now on the NMC label!

01:06:22: That was Neben Stimmen a podcast by Ensemble modern.